Jota Today at 2:31 PM
Nice. I remember that at one point, Eben was unsure about how the physics of the shadow realm worked. Given that he's been familiarizing himself with it, do you want a summary of that? (And if so, do you want it now, or should I save it for the session?)

Lucian Today at 2:31 PM
Sure, now works.

Peregrine Today at 2:31 PM
You're working now, or now would work? :smile:

Taleslinger Today at 2:31 PM
Too bad he has to go to work now. Would've loved to hear it
... timing

Peregrine Today at 2:32 PM
Or is he ordering Jota to work?

Lucian Today at 2:32 PM
AHEM i dont know what youre talking about

Peregrine Today at 2:32 PM
I have a feeling this universe has been retconned!

Jota Today at 2:33 PM
So there are basically two factors at play: whether something is located in the normal world or the shadow realm and whether something is made of normal matter or shadow stuff.
Normal matter is solid wherever it happens to be located. Shadow stuff is ethereal and insubstantial (like the woman you helped pass over). (Magic can make shadow stuff more solid, though, like the monsters you fought.)
And it's difficult for matter that's located in the shadow realm to influence things in the normal world (moving objects, making yourself heard, etc.), but very easy for things in the normal world to affect things in the shadow realm. They're all still solid (as long as they're normal matter), but it's like a feather pushing a brick vs. vice versa.
Does that seem like a reasonably clear and consistent explanation?

Taleslinger Today at 2:37 PM
Yes

Peregrine Today at 2:39 PM
So the wailing of the damned is really just ghosts crying out as we walk unwittingly on their toes.

Lucian Today at 2:40 PM
If you are e.g. hit by a truck in the shadow realm but you're a ghost, do you re-form?

Jota Today at 2:41 PM
I am suddenly concerned about what sort of experiments Eben has been carrying out.

Lucian Today at 2:41 PM
Ha

Peregrine Today at 2:41 PM
Ghostpunching!
They can't punch back

Lucian Today at 2:41 PM
I was remembering the phone falling through the woman's hands.
Which if something fell through my hands, my hands would not reform afterwards.

Jota Today at 2:42 PM
But yeah, you might not even really be dissipated much. The truck would mostly pass through you, and would probably be unpleasant and disorienting, but wouldn't necessarily do any long-term damage (assuming you're a ghost).

Lucian Today at 2:43 PM
Oh, right--stuff that is brought into the shadow realm behaves like shadow stuff with respect to the real world, but behaves like real stuff with respect to native-to-shadow stuff?

Jota Today at 2:44 PM
Normal matter that's brought into the shadow realm still behaves like normal matter with respect to stuff in either world.

Lucian Today at 2:45 PM
I thought we couldn't e.g. touch people in the real world when we were in the shadow world.

Jota Today at 2:45 PM
It's just much harder to influence things that are in the real world. E.g., Eben visiting the shadow realm is a 100% solid Eben, but it's just really easy for objects in the real world to knock him over, but really difficult for Eben to do the same to them.

Lucian Today at 2:45 PM
And the same with affecting air particles to create sound waves.

Jota Today at 2:46 PM
Yeah. You basically just don't transmit nearly as much momentum to objects in the normal world.

Lucian Today at 2:46 PM
OK, I think that was what I meant.

Jota Today at 2:47 PM
As though the barrier between worlds acted as a dampener for anything you did.

Lucian Today at 2:47 PM
So we can really save on gas mileage by packing the trunk of your car in the shadow world, and it's much lighter ;-)

Jota Today at 2:47 PM
Yes! Exactly.

Peregrine Today at 2:47 PM
Effectively making the real world like a non-Newtonian medium for the shadow world, and vice versa

Lucian Today at 2:48 PM
Do you get hurt as much by real-world things when you're a normal person in the shadow world?

Peregrine Today at 2:48 PM
the afterlife is made of silly putty???

Lucian Today at 2:48 PM
;(falling; trucks; etc.)

Peregrine Today at 2:49 PM
(to say nothing of falling trucks)

Lucian Today at 2:50 PM
(Actually, another question--could you pack your trunk twice? Once in the shadow world and once in real life? Or would the real life packing effectively displace all your shadow packing?)

Jota Today at 2:50 PM
If anything, you'd get hurt more by them. Since while you can't exert as much force on them, the converse is that you can't resist the forces they exert on you as much either.
And I think it'd depend on the stuff you packed and how you packed it. If it were filled with plastic ball pit balls in the shadow dimension, and you threw in a suitcase in the real world, then the balls would just overflow onto the ground.
But if you filled it with cardboard boxes in the shadow realm, then there's a good chance that the suitcase would just crush them.

Lucian Today at 2:53 PM
Similarly with rocks/blocks of wood?

Jota Today at 2:53 PM
If you filled it with reinforced titanium blocks, then you might find that the suitcase appears to be mysteriously floating above the floor of the trunk, while in the shadow realm, you might see the suitcase sitting on top of some slightly dented titanium.

Lucian Today at 2:54 PM
So you could in theory block a passage in the shadow realm to prevent people in RL from going down a corridor, and they would be confused as to why.

Jota Today at 2:55 PM
Yup, but the barrier would have to be much sturdier than normal in order to significantly impede them.

Lucian Today at 2:55 PM
And if they managed to force their way through, it would be by actually demolishing the stuff in the shadow realm.

Jota Today at 2:56 PM
Exactly.

Lucian Today at 2:56 PM
But stuff native to the shadow realm (i.e. ghosts) doesn't behave the same way; it's much more ephemeral.

Jota Today at 2:57 PM
If it were just a normal wooden wall, then they might wonder why they felt a cobweb brushing against their face, but in the shadow realm, you'd see that the actually broke right through like the Kool-Aid Man.
Exactly.

Lucian Today at 2:57 PM
Are there other things that are native to the shadow realm? Can you plant stuff there?

Jota Today at 3:00 PM
You'll find things there that are made of shadow stuff, similar to the ghosts or the bird-like things that attacked Jacob while you talked to the ghost, but you'll have to decide for yourself whether or not you'd consider things like that to be "native" to the shadow realm.

Lucian Today at 3:01 PM
I guess one way to check would be to see if they could be brought to our realm.
Also, I am now imagining that since normal stuff exists in both RL and shadow, when someone dies, their RL body gets separated from their shadow self.

Jota Today at 3:03 PM
As for planting stuff... if you brought the soil with you from the normal world, then things should grow mostly OK, but if you dug a hole in the normal ground (say, using Deka's super strength to force your want through), I don't think a little sprout would be strong enough to force its way up out of the earth.

Lucian Today at 3:03 PM
Does this process also happen with other animals or plants?

Jota Today at 3:04 PM
"And after Eben finished his experiments with ghosts and trucks, he moved on to killing small animals to observe what happened to them after death..."

Lucian Today at 3:04 PM
Ha

Jota Today at 3:05 PM
But yes! If you go to the shadow realm to spy on CP finding a nice mouse for dinner, then you'll find that a shadowy ghost mouse is left behind, but it doesn't last too long before it dissolves into generic shadowstuff.
(And you might even hypothesize that this could be the source of the ever-present pools of shadow that you find drifting around everywhere there, accumulating in corners, etc.)

Lucian Today at 3:08 PM
Mouse soul pools
Wait, this is implying animal reincarnation.
The people we met that 'moved on' didn't dissolve into generic shadowstuff, did they?

Jota Today at 3:10 PM
Nope. They talked about moving toward a light that you couldn't see and then just faded from your view.

Lucian Today at 3:11 PM
When a mouse gives birth, is new shadow stuff created, or is it pulled from existing pools?
(This might be hard to see.)

Jota Today at 3:12 PM
I have no idea how Eben would successfully test this, but knowing Eben, I'm sure he'd find a way, so: new shadow stuff is created.

Lucian Today at 3:12 PM
Yay
OK, so no reincarnation/reincorporation of soul goo.

Jota Today at 3:14 PM
(I'm now afraid of the part where Eben decides to hang around nursing homes and hospitals with his notepad, ready to make observations.)

Lucian Today at 3:15 PM
Which implies that it builds up over time, and there's been a lot of animals being born over the history of the earth, so if we're not drowning in it, this implies some sort of evaporation or seepage into Yet Another Realm or something. I assume that's more Eben's working theory for now, as that seems harder to test.
And plants? Do they get soul remains upon death?

Jota Today at 3:17 PM
Nothing so complete or distinct as a mouse ghost, but there does seem to be some faint hint of shadow stuff remaining when they're destroyed. But far less than for an animal. (And lower animals, like bugs, also produce far less than higher animals, like mammals.)

Lucian Today at 3:17 PM
:nods.

Jota Today at 3:18 PM
@emit Lucian asks, "And if I kill Cuddlepaws, does she produce as much shadowmass as a human? Or more like a normal cat?"

Lucian Today at 3:19 PM
Hee
Does belovedness/attention affect this at all? I'm thinking of the difference between an iconic tree in a park vs. a generic tree in the forest. Or the same for buildings, even--a family mansion might leave a shadow echo after being torn down, but normally that wouldn't happen.

Jota Today at 3:23 PM
"Witnesses report seeing an old man with a chainsaw shortly before the terrible act of vandalism took place..."

Lucian Today at 3:23 PM
Ha
(No, more thinking of visiting iconic sites that no longer exist.)

Jota Today at 3:24 PM
But no, as far as you can tell, it only affects living things, and only seems based on the inherent qualities of the thing itself, not how it was perceived by others.

Lucian Today at 3:26 PM
Got it.

Taleslinger Today at 3:30 PM
Are there cat spirits?

Lucian Today at 3:32 PM
@Taleslinger Do you think that all cats are as intelligent as you, or is it only a subset?
(or 'as self-aware', I guess)

Taleslinger Today at 3:35 PM
Hmmmm

Jota Today at 3:35 PM
@Taleslinger Yup, much like the mouse ghost. Cat ghosts seem to last a bit longer than mouse ghosts before degrading. But as @Lucian says, you're a bit more intelligent/self-aware than most cats.
Hmm. Is there an easy way to take a transcript of a Discord conversation? It might be handy to save this on the wiki.

Lucian Today at 3:43 PM
Looks like you can cut-and-paste, at least.